Re: Seven Encampments (to Ralph)
Ian Dorion (dorioni@intellinet.com)
Fri, 02 May 1997 08:10:18 -0600
David Court wrote:
>
> (snip)
> >
> >RALPH NIELSEN
> >Now I know why Dave snipped the Bible quotation in my other posting. I
> >quoted a reference that appears frequently throughout the book of Exodus.
> >But Dave pretends that 3 million people, the Children of Israel, wandered
> >around and around in a 100 mile wide desert for 40 years before they found
> >their way across. That's 2 1/2 miles per year, when a normal person has no
> >trouble walking 2 1/2 miles per hour! But Dave naively asks, "How could
> >they have known where to go?"
> >
> >(DAVE 4/25) Ralph: What is your basis for suggesting that they walked 2
> >1/2 miles every day - why do you think they walked their maximum capacity
> >every day? what is your basis for suggesting they walked EVERY day?
> >By the way, I don't "pretend" everything - we are told what happened in this
> >account that is all - I am trying to make light of it, you are trying to
> >refute it - if anything Ralph is pretending that they didn't stay in the
> >desert, and that this account is false. Sure wonder how he knows this to
> >be true.
>
> RALPH 4/25
> Aren't you being evasive, Dave? Making a big fuss about whether they walked
> EVERY day.
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: Not at all - you are using this assumption in your
> argument - I am wondering how you know it to be true - maybe they did walk
> every day, maybe they didn't- I DON'T KNOW - I am asking how you know you know.
>
> Ralph
> What difference does that make? The "fact" is that it took 3
> million people and all their birds and animals, tents and tabernacles, etc.
> forty years to to cross a desert only 100 miles across. Obviously, they
> didn't march on the Sabbath. Obviously they stopped over, many times. But
> if they went in a relatively straight line and followed the path laid out
> by their scouts, they wouldn't have taken 40 years to get across. They
> could have done it in far less than even 40 weeks, with time out for the
> Sabbath, etc.
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: Agreed. They could have. I don't dispute that at all.
> Are you saying that just because they could have that this means they SHOULD
> have? Is this the basis for your argument that Deut 10:6 and Num 33:30 are
> contradictory? That they "should" have done something? Sorry, but what you
> feel the Israelites or God "should" have done is of little interest to me.
> You always ask me for evidence, now I'm asking you - and you provide nothing
> to show me that you know where Moserath and Mt Hor were - deflecting the
> issue to how you think the exodus should have been conducted is not the issue.
>
> Ralph
> But, as I pointed out and Dave snipped: "I snipped your quote only because
> it carried
> little weight," Dave's God Yahweh led them by day and by night for the
> whole 40 years. No wonder they walked around in circles (or ellipses, or
> squares, or triangles, in case Dave objects to circles). But I will readily
> agree that with a seeing-eye guide-God like Yahweh leading the way, it was
> a miracle that they made it across in only 40 years.
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: Once again, you are asserting what God "should" have
> done - are you implying that you know how an omniscient omnipotent being
> should behave and act? Is this the basis for your argument?
>
> Ralph
> Dave, will you agree that these 3 million men, women and children, together
> with all their herds and other baggage could have averaged about 20 miles a
> week?
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: Sure. Probably they could have, and more.
>
> Ralph
> Maybe they did only 10 miles one week and 30 miles the next. But over
> the 40 years they averaged about 20 miles a week. Now 40 x 52 weeks = 2,080
> weeks. Give them the extra 80 weeks for R & R, and you have them marching
> the total equivalent of 2,000 weeks. So 2,000 x 20 miles gives us the
> astounding total of 40,000 miles. Let us rephrase that. They walked,
> limped, crawled, hopped, skipped, or trudged 1,000 miles a year. For 40
> years. All to cross a mere 100 miles of desert. Yahweh be praised!
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: Yes. Maybe maybe maybe.... They "could" have walked
> that much - please show me for a FACT how you know they did - or even why
> they SHOULD have. I could drive to Montreal today, and every day, but I
> don't. Just because I can, doesn't mean I should - and it certainly doesn't
> mean I do.
> >
> >Ralph (earlier)
> >Because "Yahweh went in front of them in a pillar of cloud by day, to lead
> >them along the way, and in a pillar of fire by night, to give them light,
> >so that they might travel by day and by night. Neither the pillar of cloud
> >by day nor the pillar of fire by night left its place in front of the
> >people" (Exodus 13:21-22).
> >
> >That is what Dave snipped out of my other posting. He doesn't want you to
> >know that the whole Exodus tale is nothing but a cock and bull story.
> >
> >(DAVE 4/25) Ralph: Yes, God led the Israelites. Now please explain to me
> >how you have come to know that this forty years in the desert was not part
> >of God's "leading"? Once again, the errantist is assuming he knows how or
> >what God should be like or do - I snipped your quote only because it carried
> >little weight.
> >
> >Let's get back to the issue - that Moserah and Mount Hor are not in the same
> >place. You say they aren't. You are basing your claim, this "founded"
> >assertion, on that fact that you can't possibly see how the Israelites would
> >be in Sinai for 40 years when they could easily have passed through in much
> >less time. You base this on the fact that God was leading them.
>
> RALPH 4/25
> Right. See above.
>
> DAVE 4/25
> >So, how do you come to conclude that God SHOULD lead them right through the
> >Sinai in a fraction of 40 years?
>
> RALPH
> Any God worth his salt should be able to do that. Even if he weren't too
> bright.
> Bottom line, Yahweh is as sorry an excuse for a god as you can get. I
> simply can't believe that he is real.
>
> (DAVE 5/2) Ralph: I see. So your basis for a contradiction between Deut
> 10:6 and Numbers 33:30 is that you "simply can't believe he is real"? Wow,
> that is powerful evidence. Please tell me Ralph, which account(s)
> concerning Aaron's death is wrong: Deut 10:6 which implies that Aaron died
> at Moserath, or Numbers 33 which implies that Aaron died at Mount Hor. This
> is the assertion that you are supporting. Which one(s) is wrong?
>
> Failure to answer this clearly shows there is no KNOWN contradiction - and
> this thread can simply end (although discussions about their travels would
> be interesting).
(Ian 5/2) First off, I think the entire covenant from Abraham on should be taken
into account. The original covenent had no strings attached to it. Abraham never
saw the promised land as Yhwh promised. Neither did Isaac, even though some
strings were attached. Nor did Jacob although still more strings were attached.
In fact, at least 450 years went by from the time Abraham mutilated his penis and
that of Ishmael until the Exodus.
(Ian 5/2) We are expected to believe that this Hebrew Horde is still following
the great God Yhwh after all this time. So let's say we accept this. I will grant
the Christians this much, the last 38 years of roaming around the desert was
because they were a bunch of low life cowards and the great God Yhwh would not
let them go to the Promised Land.
(Ian 5/2) What about the first two years? Why did they build the tabernacle out
in the middle of the desert when in less than the span of time it took them to
build the tabernacle, they could have crossed the desert? You mighty Christians
out there may say, "Who are we to question Yhwh's will?" Well, all I have to say
is, "What the hell is wrong with your brain power?"
P.S. It wouldn't hurt some of you Christians to help David out on this seeing how
he's busy at this time of the year. Besides, it would be nice to get some other
views.
> "If Joseph Smith composed this book, the act was clearly a miracle. Keeping
> awake while he did it was, at any rate."
> - Mark Twain on the Book of Mormon